SHOOTING!!

[Michelle]

Ive just heard that an eleven year old boy was shot dead, in the Fir Tree pub on the estate where I live.
Apparently shots were fired by a lad on a bike and hit the little boy in the head, he had only been football training for the pub team and this was at 7.30 this evening. I had just come in from walking the dog in the woods when this happened, I feel physically sick now.

Over the last couple of days I have seen lads in the woods with air rifles and was beginning to feel a little uncomfortable going on my own with the kids. I cant believe this has happened on my own doorstep and that an eleven year old was the target. :evil: My heart goes out to the boys parents,nobody deserves to got through anything like that. I think its time we took back where we live and finally get rid of all the gangs that seem to think they can do whatever the fuck they want :evil:

[Beth]

Oh my goodness Michelle, i just heard this on the radio. How scary for you. :cry:

[Alpha]

I think you are right Michelle,
we do need to stand up to them. I was walking home last night about 10 and even though I live in sleepy hollow its a bit nerve racking when there are groups of teenagers about. i wouldn't fancy having to walk through certain parts of Moss Side at any time of the day.
Its terrifying to think that our children may get caugt in the crossfire of things like this. i personally think this country is far too soft on violent crimes and it is about time we had a government that sorted it, stop filling the jails with petty thieves and start banging up all the knobheads who hit women and children, gang members, all the fanatics who have moved to this country to incite terrorism because lets face it they aren't allowed freedom of speech in the country they love so much...and if its so great send the fuckers back. castrate all the peados and people who surf child porn and then leave them with the murderers in prison to get a good kicking. If anyone hurt one of my kids i would personally hunt them down and not be responsible for my actions..

[Simon]

Two words. Corporal punishment.

Sorry to hear about the situation Michelle. It really sucks that these things go on anywhere. Even worse when its close to home.

[Michelle]

Yeah Corporal punishment and National Service, if they want to play with guns let them play with the big boys, then we'll see how tough and brave they are!

[happydog]

What a horrible thing to hear of and so close too. I would feel sick to the stomach too.


Two words. Corporal punishment.
Yes, my immediate reaction and no, on reflection.

Two wrongs don't make a right Simon. What would corporal punishement do, except make angry people more angry and resentful of the establishment and even more determined to get their own back?

Don't you think that if parents were more adept at educating their children that might is not right and that people should be respected for their differences rather than set upon because they are different then we might be half way there?

Easy for a non parent to say I know, but I know all about children, as I was one myself once :11:

[Simon]

Its not about wrongs makin a right tho. It's about setting an example to others.

Look at places like Saudi Arabia for instance.... very little crime.... very tough on punishment. But at the same time, I DO blame the parents. SO maybe they should be punished as well.

Also though, as Dave Courtney said in his book - "Some people are just born bad". He had a good upbringing by his parents and still turned into a gangster. :cry:

[Michelle]

I dont blame the parents in all cases, I blame peer pressure. There are lots of gangs where I live, although I didnt know there was trouble on the estate, and for a young lad the temptation to be a member of one of these gangs is very high. I think youll find that its usually the younger members of the gangs who are pressurised to commit the majority of crimes. Why? so the idiots who call themselves 'gang leaders' never get caught. But I do agree that some parents could raise their children better and find out what they're up to when they stay out half the night,or come in stoned!

[happydog]

Yes, setting an example to others is the key, but at the moment getting to court scores brownie points with their peers. Young offenders need some indignity thrust upon them rather than been mollycoddled, which is why I am in favour of bringing back the village stocks. Let the local throw rotten apples and tomatoes at them, that's what I say ;)

[Simon]

Actually, yeah - thats a very good point. I know this is also off topic, but I reckon teachers should be allowed to dish out more punishment than they are allowed. Letting kids walk over teachers in the school is just askin for trouble later in life.

[Michelle]

The police have arrested a 14 year old and a 18 year old, they're not saying if they actually shot Rhys Jones.

[happydog]

I dont blame the parents in all cases, I blame peer pressure. There are lots of gangs where I live, although I didnt know there was trouble on the estate, and for a young lad the temptation to be a member of one of these gangs is very high. I think youll find that its usually the younger members of the gangs who are pressurised to commit the majority of crimes. Why? so the idiots who call themselves 'gang leaders' never get caught. But I do agree that some parents could raise their children better and find out what they're up to when they stay out half the night,or come in stoned!

I know teenagers want to be part of a gang of whatever the type, that is part of being a teenager, needing to conform, not wanting to be different.

My point is that if younger children are given enough confidence in themselves at an early age to learn to say 'no' to something they know to be wrong and to walk away to find a new group of friends that don't contain bullies - (as this is what we are essentially dealing with at all ages), then perhaps there would be less of them.
Haven't put that very well. Have distractions atm.

[Simon]

Distractions? Like work related? :evil:

I think what you're sayin is right. But how do you deal with the generations who already grew up ignorant! (for lack of better words)

[happydog]

Distractions? Like work related? :evil:
:lol:


I think what you're sayin is right. But how do you deal with the generations who already grew up ignorant! (for lack of better words) Once found guilty, I really do think the village stocks (or a 21st century equivalent if you must) should be mandatory for anyone who has committed a crime of any type, and it should be in the area the crime was committed and outside. Let those who have been directly affected have the first pop (strictly policed of course- no stoning only rotten fruit allowed) and all the verbal abuse they like. The judicial punishment in whatever form should come after that. For some individuals who have committed the 'lesser' crimes, the indignity alone should be sufficient punishment.

[Alpha]

i do agree with lots of the points here, and yes i know some really crap parents. But one example I always think of is a friend of my Mum had 3 children 2 boys and a girl brought up properly 2 turned out brill but one ended up drinking, drugging, stealing and spending most of his life so far in prison, so i do think that peer pressure has a lot more influence than parental guidance.
I think one of the factors is that kids nowadays have no interest apart from computers and hanging about. I take Luke (yes i know hes only 4) to the local country park at least once a day and it is VERY rare that we see other children, so where are all of them. And his dad takes him fishing and I could almost guarantee he is the only child whatever venue they go to. So I can see why if they are part of a gang that the appeal is something different to the boring existence most kids have.
But I am a strong believer that the puinishment should fit the crime....Jamie Bulgars mum is still in her "prison" but the two lads that murdered him are out and abouut with new lives.
And on the point of teachers many of my friends who are qualified hate there job as they are daily dealing with rude and agressive kids...they should be given more authority and respect not bullied by some teenage "hardcase". I think more parents should look at the time their kids are at school as a partnership with the staff not a free childccare service. I also know there are a lot of crap teachers out there but the ones that are an exception should be allowed to teach in there own way not be governed by threats of parents complaining and suing.

[lyn]

what is our country coming to when kids are killing kids :cry: i think its time we started to put things right in our towns and cities. we can easily say the government needs to do something but, we need to as well.i do think that the human rights act is partly to blame for the mess we find ourselves in now. parents are now very limited in the how they can punish their own kids and teachers are in the same boat. our hands are tied.something has to be done and fast or we won't have any kids left.
they are our future and that scares the life out of me.
my heart goes out to the family of the boy who died last night.
michelle i know how shocked you must be feeling
my eldest son daniel was once taken to a field and had a gun held to his head. the people who did it are untouchable here in this town(actually thats not true coz one of them was found floating in a pond last week. they think he was murdered). i hope to god that its not to late for our kids.

[happydog]

And on the point of teachers many of my friends who are qualified hate there job as they are daily dealing with rude and agressive kids...they should be given more authority and respect not bullied by some teenage "hardcase". I think more parents should look at the time their kids are at school as a partnership with the staff not a free childccare service. I also know there are a lot of crap teachers out there but the ones that are an exception should be allowed to teach in there own way not be governed by threats of parents complaining and suing. Couldn't agree more Alpha. Teachers need respect to be able to do their job properly.
My feeling is that parents should be signing an agreement with the school that they send their children to, giving that school full parental control for the time they are in their care. If they don't agree with the way that school exercises that parental control then they don't send them to that school in the first place. QED.

[lyn]

And on the point of teachers many of my friends who are qualified hate there job as they are daily dealing with rude and agressive kids...they should be given more authority and respect not bullied by some teenage "hardcase". I think more parents should look at the time their kids are at school as a partnership with the staff not a free childccare service. I also know there are a lot of crap teachers out there but the ones that are an exception should be allowed to teach in there own way not be governed by threats of parents complaining and suing. Couldn't agree more Alpha. Teachers need respect to be able to do their job properly.
My feeling is that parents should be signing an agreement with the school that they send their children to, giving that school full parental control for the time they are in their care. If they don't agree with the way that school exercises that parental control then they don't send them to that school in the first place. QED.
once again its the human rights act at fault here. it really needs to be reviewed so parents, teachers and the police have some chance of dealing with the problems.

[Alpha]

Luke starts at BIG school on 5th sept and we (me the school and Luke) have all read and signed an agreement on all issues like bullying, school property and time keeping etc. I think even at this age you need to lay ground rules, as as little as he is he is now trying it on for the first time and even having temper tantrums :04: But I know if I let him win now then I stand no chance when he is older. i think really good schools are few and far between but if the parents supported the teachers decisions more than they have to learn some respect. And if parents supported more of the after school type stuff then they would have an interest and it might keep them off the streets. It seems rather an interesting fact that children who are brought up chritian etc communites which do lots of family type stuff seem to have more of the traditional values that I think are important.

[lyn]

i am like your friend alpha, 5 kids 4 of them turned out lovely but one is in prison now and has been there before. he has two wonderful daughters and a lovely partner. a mum and stepdad who have tried all in their power to keep him on the straight and narrow to no avail. he is 25. i now have a glimmer of hope for my boy tho. a lot of his problem was his size. he was always much smaller than his peers and so he would overcompensate for this. if one boy say, got up to no good. then our dan just had to go one better and often went to far. he then got into the wrong crowd(not sure if there is a right crowd round here) when he was 18 or so he became involved with drugs and the scumbag dealers. i admit to almost having a nervous breakdown with what he put us through. he broke my heart and scrunched the peices underfoot. he has seemed to have filled out in the past few months and he really is pleased at how he is looking. its lovely now to see him now. he was a crack addict and of course the crack just made him skinnier which then made him want to prove himself even more. ironically he has built himself up by using the prison gym :o i am one of those people who believe prisoners should have no luxuries. no gym, telly satalite or any of the other stuff they get to help pass the time. i am of the opinion that prisoners should be stuck in the cell for most of the day with no extras. let them stew in their own juices.

[Simon]

Its when prisons have Playstations in rooms that I get annoyed.

What did send them there for again? Oh thats right, for a crime!

[MightyMouth]

Heard this on the news this morning. Poor baby :cry:

[Alpha]

I have to admit i have had many struggles with Max at the age of 13 she started seeing a local dealer (he was 22 at the time) I informed the social services who didn't help at all, I was constantly on to the police when she moved out at 15 to her cousins who lived funnily enough across the road to make sure she was still alive. He used to violently beat her even in front of his alcoholic mother who did nothing to stop it. And i was the one that got arrested for going after him with a golf club. I have to admit the police where brill and had nothing but sympathy and help. After she came to her sense and came home she ended up with another dead loss. Thankfully now at 21 she is someone I am proud of and love spending my time with. And with me and Knobhead splitting up she has been such a help and support with Luke, Lilly and everything, She is becoming one of my best friends. I do however blame myself for her behaviour. I left her father (she and him where the apples of each others eyes) after more DV than you could shake a stick at and adultery (and yes i can't believe I did it again) when she was 10 and at that point i think she has seen my relationship with her father as "normal" and didn't see that there is another way...I know that i should of left him earlier and shown some self respect and then she wouldn't of made some of the bad decisions she made. So i do think that a combination of wrong parental signals and peer pressure made her behave the way she did. Thankfully we have got through it but at times i really couldn't see any end to it, however i would never give up on my kids.
About 6 months ago a young lad of 19 came home and had a row with his mother and killed her. I was seeing a client who lived next door (nice area nice people nice houses etc all very middle class) about a week after the event and they were completely shell shocked as they could recall how close and what a good realtionship they had. the local press are saying nothing about what happened...but it just makes you think. What if it isn't parental guidance or peer pressure and some people are just genuinely bad with absolutely no conscience

[lyn]

dan has never quite fitted the criminal mould, once,a week or so after xmas his friends went out to a nearby village and nicked a kids bike(plus other stuff). dan took it off them and trudged to said village with the bike and because he didn't know exactly which house it had come from he left it in the street. he said it was obviously some childs xmas pressie. he could also be a violent bully too tho. you just never knew what "dan" was coming in your door :04:

i can't get that poor little boy and his family out of my head. i can't even watch it on the news. it makes me feel sick.